Latest posts for the topic "A good test book for checking eReader-format support"

A good test book for checking eReader-format support

RobertJSawyer — GMT

Although eReader is a very robust application on Palm OS devices, and the Windows implementation isn't bad (although the B&N Reader version has lots of bugs, and many features stripped out), other recent implementations have left much to be desired, especially when dealing with complexly formatted ebooks.

See rest of this post here (since ECTACO only allows tiny posts on this forum).

===

ROBERT J. SAWYER, Science Fiction Writer
Author FLASHFORWARD, basis for the TV series
http://sfwriter.com * sawyer@sfwriter.com

kmrowley — GMT

I think the problem is that the format of PDB is a bit too specific for palm devices. On one of the forums on Amazon today there was a discussion on DRM and someone mentioned that the EPUB format was a bit more sophisicated than most of the other formats.

I think that the publishing industry really needs to come together and come up with a standarized format. It’s been done before with JPEG and MPEG.

RobertJSawyer — GMT

kmrowley, you've made that contention over and over again, and it's just not true. There is nothing "specific for Palm devices" about the eReader format. Yes, they use the file extension .pdb because that's one of the few extensions Palm devices recognize, but the internal file format is not Palm specific. eReader is supported on all the devices listed here. Honest to God, the Palm connection is a nonissue in this regard.

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ROBERT J. SAWYER, Science Fiction Writer
Author FLASHFORWARD, basis for the TV series
http://sfwriter.com * sawyer@sfwriter.com

kmrowley — GMT

[quote=RobertJSawyer]There is nothing "specific for Palm devices" about the eReader format.[/quote]

Well, I'm probably not the expert that you are - but it seems to me that the ebook pdb format originally started back with Peanut Press - running on the Palm PDA OS of the time (v3.x on the Palm IIIc, I think). My guess is that the format hasn't really evolved much after that. Yeah, there is now software available today that can read the format on other devices, but as you pointed out there are problems with certain functions at times. All I know is the chapter links work on my Palm, as do the dictionaries, the images, and the footnotes - it's almost as if the files were specifically designed to work on that device.

pgovotsos — GMT

Ereader pdb isn't a database, it's a document format just like doc, gif or jpg. Just like those formats, ereader requires a program to read them AND just like those formats, some programs don't implement all features of that format - like some graphic programs don't support progressive jpgs, only interlace or like Word & Wordperfect can read each other's files, but not all features translate correctly.

Yes, the ereader format started on PalmOs - it was the only viable portable option at the time, but it has matured greatly since then. As Robert was saying in the first prompt, Ereader format is the most robust and mature ebook format available. It currently is the format supported on more OSs than any other - Windows, Mac, Palm, Blackberry, iPhone, Android, Symbian, Windows Mobile/Pocket PC, and several dedicated book devices.

pgovotsos — GMT

I think your complaints more appropriately apply to this specific device's implementation of the Ereader format rather than the format itself. The format will do anything you want, it's just that Ectaco has so far only implemented the most primitive features of the format. They claim support will improve but of course time will tell.

If you can't stand Ectaco's implementation of the Ereader format, stop complaining about it and vote with your walet - get another platform that supports a format you like or buy a nook that supports a more complete Ereader feature set, though it 's missing some features the Windows version supports also.

Panagiotis

kmrowley — GMT

[quote=pgovotsos]"Ereader pdb isn't a database,..."

"Yes, the ereader format started on PalmOs - it was the only viable portable option at the time, but it has matured greatly since then."[/quote]

Strictly speaking, no the ebook pdb format isn't a true database, but it was / is an external data file for a database..
http://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/PDB

You claim that the pdb format has since "matured" - how so? The eStudio program I have installed is fairly old (around 2004), and I probably have an older version of it from around the first part of the 2000 on my old W98SE box. What new features of the format are there today that were not around back then?

kmrowley — GMT

[quote=pgovotsos]"I think your complaints...."

"If you can't stand Ectaco's implementation of the Ereader format, stop complaining about it and vote with your walet.... "
Panagiotis[/quote]

Not sure if you aimed this at me, or Robert, or just the general public..

But if it was me, I like the JBL and don't have any issues with it - it does all that I need to do. And have even gotten a couple of other people to order one based on my recommendations...

I'm also happy with my old palm too..

RobertJSawyer — GMT

kmrowley wrote, "All I know is the chapter links work on my Palm, as do the dictionaries, the images, and the footnotes." Those features also work on the Windows version of eReader; those features also work on the iPhone version of eReader; those features also work on other versions of eReader, as well. It is not a Palm-related issue; you are wrong when you say, "It's almost as if the files were specifically designed to work on that device."

RobertJSawyer — GMT

[continued from above] They CAN BE MADE TO WORK on the jetBook - Lite; the problem is NOT that the eReader format has some magic synergy with Palm devices, and it is NOT that ECTACO has or would have to write a Palm OS emulator to run on the jetBook hardware. The problem is SIMPLY that ECTACO rushed a half-assed program for reading eReader-format books to market.

RobertJSawyer — GMT

[continued from above] Now, you may not CARE about the very features that you yourself have enumerated as missing, kmrowley, since you write "I like the JBL and don't have any issues with it - it does all that I need to do." Good, be happy. Enjoy. But please stop insisting that features the rest of us need are unavailable because of some made-up-belief you hold about eReader-format-books only truly being readable with all their feature on Palms. That's not the case RIGHT NOW; those features are ON OTHER PLATFORMS AS WELL; you are demonstrably wrong.

RobertJSawyer — GMT

[continued from above] Hell, ECTACO hasn't even implemented features for eReader books on the jetBook that they offer on plain-text books on the same device (such as dictionary lookup and search). Their HARDWARE can do those things. You don't care; fine. But others do -- and just maybe a few more of us, if we were made happy, might buy the product for others, too, or urge others to buy it. ECTACO still has work to do if they want to corner any meaningful portion of this marketplace.

===

ROBERT J. SAWYER, Science Fiction Writer
Author FLASHFORWARD, basis for the TV series
http://sfwriter.com * sawyer@sfwriter.com

pgovotsos — GMT

[quote=kmrowley]
Not sure if you aimed this at me, or Robert, or just the general public..

But if it was me, I like the JBL and don't have any issues with it - it does all that I need to do. And have even gotten a couple of other people to order one based on my recommendations...

I'm also happy with my old palm too..[/quote]

Of course it was aimed at you. If your so happy, enjoy it and quit griping about things you have no knowledge of. Once again, you do yourself no credit by parading your ignorance for all to see.

Panagiotis

kmrowley — GMT

[quote=pgovotsos][quote=kmrowley]
Not sure if you aimed this at me, or Robert, or just the general public..
[/quote]

Of course it was aimed at you. If your so happy, enjoy it and quit griping about things you have no knowledge of. Once again, you do yourself no credit by parading your ignorance for all to see.

Panagiotis[/quote]

If it was aimed at me - then why did you say; "I think your complaints.."
What did I complain about, other than other people complaining....

"If you can't stand Ectaco's implementation of the Ereader format..."
When have I even said I can't stand what Ectaco done with the JBL? I like the device. Probably as much as that old Rocketbook that you like.

(Cont.)

kmrowley — GMT

[quote=pgovotsos][quote=kmrowley]
Not sure if you aimed this at me, or Robert, or just the general public..
[/quote]

Of course it was aimed at you. If your so happy, enjoy it and quit griping about things you have no knowledge of. Once again, you do yourself no credit by parading your ignorance for all to see.

Panagiotis[/quote]

(cont.)

"..stop complaining about it and vote with your walet - get another platform that supports a format you like..."
I looked at a number of the other platforms before buying a JBL and I did vote with my wallet - I bought the JBL.

"...about things you have no knowledge of. "
What? That the pdb file format is a database file? If you got a source of information that says that ain't so, post me a link to it.. otherwise I'll continue to believe what I've read here..

http://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/PDB
http://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/EReader

BlairH — GMT

Before this thread was sidetracked, Robert had made a very worthwhile suggestion. Rather than using an actual book, might it not be better to use a document specifically designed to stress a reader for a specific format? I know that various implementations of TeX and LateX, come with standard files that allow you to test both the implementation and your installation of the software. Such a document shouldn't be too hard to concoct.

kmrowley — GMT

I'm a little surprised that there isn't some standardized test document available. But, I really don't know who would need to be the one that should be tasked with developing such a file and offering it.

I see the ebook industry as being at the stage that computer software was when PC first started showing up in homes. Back when everything was DOS based and there was no commonality between programs and the files that they used. I remember thinking back then, when deciding on buying some new program "Will this work on my machine?"

(cont.)

kmrowley — GMT

(cont.)

I would probably buy more ebooks that I do now - if I knew for certain that the files would work with what I have. I haven't bought any books from B&N yet, simply because from what I read on their forums that you can't be certain if the books will be in PDB or EPUB format. And I'm not sure the B&N EPUB format works with my JBL. I would like to see a standardized test document be offered for download by all sellers, so that you could test the compatability of their ebooks with your device. I wouldn't even have to be a real "book", maybe just something filled with fake latin / Lorem Ipsum from a Lipsum generator.

ezeechair — GMT

Where can one go to find out more info on e-readers and what they support. I am refering more to the DRM side. I have the JetBook now but I did try out the Alurateck Libre Pro which is identical to the JB but hold the Dictionary and the PDF rendering is different. The Libre supported Adobe Digital Editions as it's drm manager. This allowed me to purchased a book from Kobo (Chapters). I switched to EB because of the Dictionary access. Being the same physical device and sporting the same range of formats I assumed that ADE would work with this unit as well.

ezeechair — GMT

Cont'd (boy is this lame)

Actually what I thought was the ADE on my PC would authorize my e-reader regardless of brand if I was able to hook it up to my PC via USB.

Being new to the whole reader scene I am getting very confused.

Now the JB doesn't support DRM period and if it did it would probably be non ADE compatable. I still don't understand why DRM has not been introduced to the JB when it exists for the JBL.

The whole scene is very disturbing. There should be a DRM available that is supported by all E-Book retailers and e-Readers(in general). I understand the need for DRM but it still shouldn't prevent me from shopping around for e-books.
Pricing, hardware, features and support should be what attracks you to a retailer whether ebooks or ereaders. DRM should not be part of that.

Just my opinion.

ezeechair — GMT

As DRM won't disappear we need an 3rd party Co that you obtain a personal ID from. Then as you go about purchasing e-books the Retailer, book title and key will be stored within your profile on that Co.'s server. Within your profile a record would be kept of what devices you own and what books you have (purchased). Non drm books would obiviously not be affected.

Using your ID code you manage your e-readers. There could be limits as to how many can exist in one profile at a time.

2 b cont'd

ezeechair — GMT

Cont'd
Should you have a hardware failure or replacement and you need a fresh copy you should be able to get one by logging into the retailer site and your id should be proof of purchase etc.
The cost of the DRM provider could be part of the e-book/e-reader sales as well as maybe a membership fee or maintenance fee. After all we are probably getting nailed for those cost as i8t is anyways.

Anyways that's how I see it should run.

pgovotsos — GMT

[quote=ezeechair]As DRM won't disappear we need an 3rd party Co that you obtain a personal ID from. Then as you go about purchasing e-books the Retailer, book title and key will be stored within your profile on that Co.'s server. [/quote]

This is the main problem I have with most ebook DRM - authentication being handled by an external source. What if that source is out of service or goes away? What happens to my books? I can't read them.

That's one of my favorite things about the ereader format. A hash of the unlock info is stored in the file so you can download it (repeatedly if necessary) and read it on any device. When you open the book, just enter your name and credit card number used to encrypt the book and start reading.

I like this because it's a secure DRM (I'm not giving anyone my credit card#) and it gives me maximum flexibility (I can read it on anything that reads the format (which is any OS plus several dedicated ereaders).

Panagiotis

ezeechair — GMT

Please eleaborate. Which format are you referring to? Which retailer deals that way? Which ereader? I am not being funny here I truely would like to know?

I have very little experience with all this and right now I feel I should abondon the whole concept. It's not that ahard to play CD's or DVD's.

pgovotsos — GMT

Sorry the following is so long - I've tried to be a clear as I can. Some of the detalis with these formats might be glossed over a bit, but you'll get the main ideas.

eReader (DRMed pdb files from Barnes & Noble, Fictionwise, and many others) when you purchase the book, your purchase info is used to encrypt the book. A hash of your info is stored in the document (not the actual data, just a calculated value). Download the book. First time you open the book, it will ask you for the unlock info (name and credit card number - case sensitive and no spaces in CC#). Once downloaded, you can install anywhere you have a eReader compliant reader (JetBook Lite, nook, PC, Mac, PalmOS, Android, iPhone, Blackberry, Symbian, Windows Mobile / pocket PC), just enter the unlock info and read.

...

pgovotsos — GMT

When you initially purchase the book, it's encoded and you can stick it anywhere, unlock it, and read it. Aside from the initial encryption from the seller, there is NO contact with the world needed. As long as you remember your name & credit card number, you can do whatever you want with it.

Effectively what this means is if you buy a book from B&N today and B&N close tomorrow, you can still enjoy your book forever.

...

pgovotsos — GMT

Adobe PDF DRM documents are encrypted and you are validated by a central ADE server. If your vendor and/or the validation server goes away, bye bye book

EPUB DRM documents function the same with different validation source.

Mobipocket DRMed files are a little different. Each device used to read the book must be registered at Mobipocket - with a max of 4 or 5 devices currently registered (you can delete on and register another if you need to in the future). The book is encrypted so that only machines with current registrations can open the book. If you get a new device, you need to register it and redownload the book so the new devices ID is included in the encryption. If Mobipocket goes away, you can continue to read your books on any registered device, you just can't add/delete registrations and you can't redownload them because each time you do the seller contacts Mobipocket to get the IDs to encrypt with.

...

pgovotsos — GMT

Kindle editions can only be downloaded and read by Kindles and iPhones and PCs. They can only be read on one Kindle or authorized iPhones or PC. PC & iPhones cannot read newspapers, magazines, or blogs. The books are downloaded and validated from Amazon server. If there is any disruption an their end, no new books and no validations. Also the books are only readable on 1 Kindle - if you get an additional or replacement one (for other than warranty reasons) you need to repurchase the books.

...

pgovotsos — GMT

Sony reader books are again device dependant (Sony reader and / or PC). Only purchased from Sony, Borders, or other authorized sellers. Validation again from central server. PDF files validated with ADE. Others with their respective sources. I don't know if books can be transferred to a new device. This is the format I am least familiar with in the details.

Of course, rtf, txt, html, doc and other formats have no DRM and can be freely used as supported by your device.

...

pgovotsos — GMT

So you see why I like eReader the best of current DRM formats. It's a very robust and mature format. It supports pretty much all features you could want in a document (with the exception of image maps) and it's been time tested for over 10 years adding features as it goes - stabilizing (without the need for changes / updates other than new OS support) since 2004 (last date I found in changelog other than new OSes).

Once I purchase and download a book, I can do anything and go anywhere with it as long as I know my name and CC#. It's perfect both for seller and buyer. The seller knows you're not going to pass around your credit card number and, while I've seen many tools to do this with other formats, I haven't come across any tools to break the DRM on eReader books. It's perfect for the buyer because once he has the book, he's got it to do anything without interaction with, or interference from, any external source.

I hope this helps clarify formats.

Panagiotis

pgovotsos — GMT

Sorry, silly system posted last message 3 times. BTW Thanks Ectaco for the ridiculous message length limits

ezeechair — GMT

So to summarize eReader (which I just found out exists as an actual software with it's own format - pdb) has a key with the purchased book/doc. The pdb encrypted book can be read through any device that has eReader reader. The other formats use encryption that tie the book to either 1 or listed number of devices - which have to be authorized by retailer or format provider servers. If they disappear and/or hardware changes you can no longer read the book - even if you have their reader software on your device.
Cont't....

ezeechair — GMT

Cont'd.... With eReader as long as you have a copy of the book archived you can read it via any eReader on using the key.

Is the key required for every access or just on "first use" when book is stored on a physical reader?

Can eReader manage many different keys on one device such as different CC#'s for different purchases? You may not change your name but CCs come and go over time.

kmrowley — GMT

[quote=ezeechair]Where can one go to find out more info on e-readers and what they support.
[/quote]

A web site that you can reference is the MobileRead Wiki,

Main Page
http://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/Main_Page

LCD E-Book Reader Matrix (which is what jetBook falls under)
http://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/LCD_E-Book_Reader_Matrix

E-book formats
http://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/E-book_formats

PDB format
http://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/PDB

eReader
http://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/EReader

kmrowley — GMT

[quote=ezeechair] Can eReader manage many different keys on one device such as different CC#'s for different purchases? You may not change your name but CCs come and go over time.[/quote]

I changed CCs awhile back and with the new firmware update the JBL accepts and remembers both numbers. But, I've also noticed that since changing my CC number at the eReader store - all the books in my bookcase (books I've bought and can download) now have the new number as the unlock code. I could just redownload all my old books and they would have the new unlock code.

ezeechair — GMT

kmrowley thanks for the links.

Back to your eReader experience - so on adding your new CC# to your reader you still had access to the older books without doing a download. Did you have to define your new CC# at the eReader site or define it to eReader on your pc or just throught the purchase transactions of new books.

The website didn't explain the key function well.

kmrowley — GMT

[quote=ezeechair]kmrowley thanks for the links.

Back to your eReader experience - so on adding your new CC# to your reader you still had access to the older books without doing a download. Did you have to define your new CC# at the eReader site or define it to eReader on your pc or just throught the purchase transactions of new books.

The website didn't explain the key function well.[/quote]

Before buying my JBL, I had a bunch of PDB books from eReader that I've bought over the years for my palm PDA (they work on the JBL too). They were bought using my old CC, now I'm buying books for the JBL using my new CC. So I've ended up with ebooks with different unlock codes - both work on the JBL (and palm) with no problems. You just enter the codes once on the device and it remembers them for any future books needing that code.

pgovotsos — GMT

You only need to enter the unlock code on first use. Most reading devices WILL support multiple unlock infos. To do this on the JetBook Lite, you need to have firmware 0.15 installed. Previous versions didn't remember ANY codes, but the new one remembers multiple unlock codes.

Panagiotis

Little.Egret — GMT

[quote=pgovotsos]

Amazon server. If there is any disruption an their end, no new books and no validations. Also the books are only readable on 1 Kindle - if you get an additional or replacement one (for other than warranty reasons) you need to repurchase the books.

...[/quote]

Not so. You can have multiple Kindles registered to one account, not sure what happens when you divorce but you can sell a Kindle and keep the books you bought.

pgovotsos — GMT

Sorry, that's how it was when released. I hadn't looked at it since.